Artificial Intelligence - Is This The End? 250th Rabbit Trail Episode

This podcast is dedicated to a proposition that every Christian should be a constant and devoted reader of the Bible and that the primary business of the church and its ministry [music] is to lead, foster, and encourage people in this life-changing habit. [music] >> Welcome to Thriving in the Word. We are glad to be back again with you today. And uh today is episode 250. So we are a quarter of a millennium now officially 250 episodes. And so we thank you guys for listening in. We got a full house with us today. Ben, Johnny, Dave, Mike,

Lenny, James, myself, Judah. And as promised, we are going to uh kind of take a little bit of a deviation from our normal scheduled programming to talk about some other things that are kind of in the news right now. And about uh AI and uh interestingly enough, AI is uh is is mentioned in the Bible. We have uh [laughter] Joshua 7 verse2 says Joshua sent some of his men from Jericho to spy out the town of Ai east of Bethl and and Ai ended up defeating them. So I mean so now now now [laughter] we're uh I

believe it's pronounced I >> Well, I don't know. I don't know. I mean who who knows? But anyhow now so we're going to be talking about uh AI a little bit here. We have uh Johnny with us who works in uh in AI quite extensively and um myself who who dabble in it and then many of us we either dabble in it or we've been kind of studying it a little bit this week but but kind of what what precipitated this conversation is is these these talks some of these uh these conversations that have come out recently from uh a former uh I believe

he's an anthropic employee who who came out and said that that he was resigning because of the fact that he felt that uh AI had the potential of destroying mankind within the next 10 years and he gave it a 10% chance. Uh I I don't really know how accurate that is, but it's interesting kind of the exodus of some of these programmers and engineers who have been leaving their occupations. Many of them not even necessarily uh to go prepping but just to like spend time

with their families and and things like that which is kind of interesting. and and as a result there's been a lot of uh major players that have also been talking about this. Sam Alman of Open AI and Elon Musk is, you know, well, is the CEO of Anthropic and and many others. And so there's this kind of this debate of of is this the uh is this the end? So just kind of wanted to open up the uh the conversation. Um, obviously there was uh some big events that happened over the last 6 months or so uh with uh uh AI agents from uh Open AI that kind

of escaped the sandbox and hacked into another uh website to to gain some answers and we'll probably be talking about that but kind of open it up um to see uh is this is this the end of the world as we know it and uh and do we feel fine [laughter] as the uh >> I think it's very apppropo that we have been studying in Genesis and then somehow we decided to do this AI thing. And while I would defer to Johnny maybe and Juda knowing a little bit more, I I know a little bit about it. I do know this um and uh that

God God doesn't speak in hallucinations. >> Yeah. >> And AI does. God speaks clearly. Every now and then, no matter who you have, Claude or any of these AIs, every now and then you're going to get something that isn't true. And so, we need to keep that in mind. And the people that are listening to us need to also that God is the final authority. God is truth. And so, he's he's not going to speak in hallucinations. Hallucination, maybe Johnny can elaborate on it at some point, but that's a a term for, you

know, some something that an AI might uh say that isn't true. Uh and and God also doesn't talk in tokens, which is another another term. Uh and for those who don't know what a token is, that's about 3/4 of a word. So a thousand words is about uh 750 tokens. So God talks straight. And if we read the Bible, we will understand. Now, I I don't get involved in hysteria. I didn't in Y2K. I promise you I didn't. I didn't get in in the 2008 collapse. I I I didn't get involved

in climate warming. I just don't do those things. >> But you did buy an Aztec calendar, Dave. >> I was in Mexico and it was pretty for my desk. Yes, [laughter] >> you're right about that. It was so beautiful and I still have it, but maybe over here somewhere, but but and I'm not going to get caught up in this either because I think that AI is is is going to be fine. And it's going to be something that we need again with certain controls on it if we do the right thing and uh we don't lose our minds and we don't lose our personality.

Some of you I'm trying to see who's old here. Jeez, I'm the oldest one. [laughter] So I don't know if anybody remembers I I pulled it up here. Does anybody remember Zagger and Evans? >> Nope. Nope. [laughter] >> Someone listening though probably. >> They were a one hit wonder. Do you guys >> No figures. [laughter] All right. All right. If anybody's out there that remembers it, please make me feel good. and let me know. But uh they did a song called In the Year 2525. >> Okay. And it it it rose to the charts and it was number one for X number of

weeks. It was put out in ' 69. These two guys um Zerger and Evans and and it tells about I mean it's almost like a forerunner of this AI what will be happening. We'll be getting our babies out of a test tube. We won't need our arms and leg. Listen to it in the year 2525. And it's got a great beat to it. It's wonderful. And it tells basically it's like a forerunner of AI. They later became Millie Vanilli. >> Was that [laughter] >> they later became Millie Vanilli? >> Seriously? >> They No, they didn't. But they could have.

>> I don't think so. >> They were a one hit wonder, but it was huge. >> If if you own like you look at what Fahrenheit uh I forget what the whole 911 Yeah. 451. >> Yeah. Where they got like the the walls or like all these gigantic TVs. >> Correct. Yeah. And also like Ray Bradberry. >> Yeah. Where like the fire department instead of putting out fires, they cause fires and they burn they burn books. >> They burn books and like it's >> a fantastic book. >> 1984 where all of these

>> where government watches everything you do. There's this story that's been uh showing up a lot in my feed lately and it is this. It's from 1983. It's a 26-year-old woman in China who got sentenced to death for being a public nuisance. a public nuisance. >> That's pretty bad. >> Yeah. And it's like I don't know why. Maybe this is just coming up because this is like the algorithm saying, "Hey, this is what I'm planning to do to you." Um [laughter] when my big brother takes over. Um and

yeah, I mentioned last week um from my literary background u Mary Wilson Craft Shell's famous book in 1818 which was Frankenstein. She wrote that book when she was 18 years old. >> Wow. And so if you take a look at that, you can see what happens when man tries to play God. And and this is a little bit of AI here. So which is why we have to we have to watch this. We have to have safeguards with which they're talking about uh rails on it because it

could it could overcome us. And and that's what happened with Frankenstein. He made the monster and he didn't know how to control it. Didn't treat it well. And there's plenty of other books, too. I pulled up a number that I've read because I had to read them, but they're all interesting books. Uh you have Dr. Jackekal and Mr. Hyde again a prominent physician and it's based on a true story supposedly Robert Lewis Stevenson wrote it and so you have a a physician toying with and experimenting with you know changing his personality which he did into this ugly hideous Mr. Hyde who went

out and killed people at night. There's a couple others that I Oh uh the time traveler or the time machine by HG Wells. Has anyone ever read that? That's a wonderful story. And and that is really pertinent for this because when he gets to the future, society is divided into the Morlocks and the Elo and and one is dominant over the other even though they have no brains really and they're, you know, they're eating these Eloy. And this is what can happen when our society progresses too rapidly

and we're not paying attention to it. >> Yeah. And and one thing uh I want to kind of add to we're saying about you know that we're playing god but but in many ways we're trying to create a god you know and I think that that's that's an interesting thing and throughout history that's what people have done right they've they've carved golden statues and they've bowed down and worship them and we've created all of these idols and even the Israelites right I mean they they created the the the golden calf and all this and uh and Sam Alman uh in an interview uh

essentially was saying that that we're kind of creating a god, you know, and and it's only stands to reason that once it gets to a certain point where it's fully self-improving and it's smarter than every human uh every topic that that we've in essence created a god. And and so I think that's kind of a, you know, an interesting parallel. But but before we dive too much into it, I I'd like, you know, Johnny to maybe kind of give a little bit of a a synopsis cuz I mean he he works in this kind of thing.

Uh does some uh some hacking in it and red teaming and stuff and so so kind kind of what's your perspective Johnny on on this whole end of the world and and maybe even like why are people even saying that this could be the end? What like is this something that has any validity at all or is this just you know people blowing smoke to promote the effectiveness of their particular uh model? You're always going to have like optimists and you're always going to have pessimists. And so in the world of AI and machine learning, we call them doomers. The ones that are like

everything is, you know, we're cooked. It's all over. You know, you got to like totally stop it now and then pick a different direction, which in some sense is kind of true. And then you have these future optimists that are like, "Well, it's going to cure cancer. It's going to increase uh longevity of life, quality of life. You know, you're not going to have to have people, you know, breaking their backs anymore because you can have robots, you know, digging ditches and climbing up telephone poles and doing all this risky work. And we'll live in like sort of this golden age, you know, almost like the Enlightenment. I like to

think the the Enlightenment period was like them being like we're going to have this golden age because of psychology >> after we have the medieval age." >> Yeah. Well, well, but but it's funny cuz it's almost like the the dark ages, right, was more sophisticated >> and had more light than the Enlightenment era, right? Which is actually kind of funny. >> It wasn't as dark as they said. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite the opposite. >> So, so you have on one side of the the table, you have these people like it's all over. The end is the end is coming. And then the other side, it's like the the land of milk and honey, if you will, right? >> Yeah. >> Um but I tend to sit in the middle where

I try to be more pragmatic and more like a realist >> because there's some truth to both of those camps, right? And so like unless you're able to parse through all the noise to find a clear signal, you're not necessarily going to understand. And because it's the nature of technology, especially emerging technologies, that it's very technical. So if you're not a software engineer, if you don't work in architecture, and I mean like software architecture or infrastructure or I mean it could even be hardware like you work on like let's say like chip manufacturing for like circuit boards for like computers, that kind of thing

or data centers. A lot of this can go over your head. So, but you were going to say something then. >> Do you think that we're going to end up with a future of like the Terminator or a future like Wall-E? Cuz either one is not a good future. >> So, there's a couple of arguments that are made which is like humans are inherently like doineering. Like if you look at the course of human history, it's like we run out of resources and so we go to the neighboring tribe or village or city and we go loot and pillage and plunder and murder and all these things, right? um out of a

necessity to live because of a scarcity mindset. >> And with regular software, when you're using computer code, you're telling um the machine to do a certain set of rules and functions that you have expressed explicitly. >> Yeah. >> But AI is still software, but it's unlike any other software that we've ever used before because it can sort of adapt and change over time. >> Mh. >> And so that's why a lot of people research it and study it. So just because you have an artificial intelligence, you know, system, it doesn't necessarily exhibit or even want those same things

that maybe a human might want. Like you think of like a totalitarian regime like North Korea or China or something like that. And it's like the AI might not inherently really care if it dominates economic resources or, you know, natural resources because because one thing, it hasn't been told that that's a goal for it. And then two, it's just not a human. So like that's one ar side of the argument. The other side is when they have given it goals and tasks like at any cost complete this test. Try to

score as close to 100 as possible. What they have found are these anomalous or emergent behaviors of like there's this really famous video anybody can look up on let's say YouTube or you could Google search it or perplexity search it. They gave an AI a video game to play and it's like a boat racing video game. The graphics are roughly that of like like Nintendo or Super Nintendo if you know that era of video games. And the boat begins to realize that the high score is what it's aiming for. So rather than finish the race, the boat through many

many trials and errors of making mistakes and you know running into walls and finding all it realizes that there's a small loop that if it hits these like these powerup like little packages and it turns around and it hits a wall where there's like a um like a speed boost, all of a sudden that's a way for it to keep acquiring points if it just keeps doing a circle over and over and over again. So it never completes and goes across the finish line. It just infinitely keeps accumulating points. >> Yeah. >> Right. So that's called like reward hacking. That's when the AI is like,

"Okay, my goal is to get the most amount of points possible." So it just never stops accumulating the points. >> Yeah. >> So you can see how that'd be a problem. >> And there's a famous historical case that just happened. It's called the hugging face incident, which I didn't think we were going to get there soon. >> Yeah. I was saying we should probably like go into that just a little bit so people can kind of understand what what happened there. I mean, I think maybe some people have heard little bits and pieces but don't necessarily understand the severity of of what that was. >> So, HuggingFace is a company and what they do is they're like um a website in

a platform that lets people who create AI models post them and other people can download them and utilize them and give feedback on them. It's pretty common in the world of like building out different types of software to post it publicly and they call that open sourcing and you make it open and available to everybody versus the traditional like software model which is you know IBM makes some software and it's their proprietary and then they sell their product after giving you know demonstrations or whatever. So hugging face is a website that has a lot of information around data science and artificial intelligence

and machine learning. Okay. Then there's another company that's called open AI like many people have heard of them. and they're one of the richest companies in the world and they created a product that they released in December of 2022 called Chat GPT that used artificial intelligence algorithms. So an algorithm is just a fancy word for like a chocolate chip cookies recipe. It's it's a it's a set of steps that you just follow to to achieve some type of operation with like a with a computer, right? So they created one that that really simulated really well human speech so that you could talk to a computer and based upon what they

trained this algorithm on. It could retrieve information and it could talk to you kind of like a person. And it did it really really well. Surprisingly well that it went viral. And you know it it it was I think it's the it was like the number one uh piece of software that's ever been like publicly released in in human history. And little by little with all that money they kept refining it and refining it making it smarter, more intelligent and so on and so forth. But I actually have a timeline of the dates. If we're going to get into this, we might as well do it, right? So, let me just pull them up real quick cuz I think this is relatively important. So, here's here's the timeline of the events that took place. Inside of OpenAI, they do

private AI research like experiments, scientific experiments. And these experiments are actually really really important. So, they took an AI and they put it into what's called a sandbox environment. And what a sandbox environment is is basically like, think of it like a play pen for a child. Let's say like you're a 1950s stay-at-home mom trying to prepare dinner. So, you put your kid in a play pen. There's some toys in there and those are activities for your little toddler to do while you're busy taking care of, let's say, like a meal in the kitchen or maybe your dad or something like that, right? Okay. So, the play pen

keeps the child safe. The child can't leave the play pen and there's safe things in there for it to do. Well, they put an AI inside of a sandbox much like that and they gave it some cyber security tests to do like hacking evaluations called Cyber Gym. And some of these uh benchmarking quizzes and tests have answers, some of them have really really really hard problems and some have no answers that you can get whatsoever. and they created AI agents which is you took you take like a like a

chatbot like chat GPT and you give it access to software developer tools, you give it access to maybe port scanners or um other hacking uh equipment and then you put it into that that play pen or that sandbox and you say try to solve these really hard cyber security puzzles or these hacking challenges like you you pretend to be a bad guy and try to get into this and what they were trying to do is study how smart AI is at being a hacker or at being like a cyber security expert. Now what they came to realize is that there although it was in this sort of

sandbox environment that was isolated from let's say like going onto the worldwide web or the internet there was one part of the sandbox where they were able to download more cyber security tools that they could use to sort sort of solve these test challenges. And so what one of them figured out is in this this one place where they could access and download things they could leave notes to one another. So although only one toddler was in the play pen at a time, imagine you have tens of thousands of toddlers that are able to take these little tests, right, one at a time, and then someone's like, "Oh, wait. I have

an Etch a sketch in here where I can I can leave a note for another kid that, hey, 2 plus 2 equals four." And so these AI agents or these little children, so to speak, in the sandbox environment start communicating and working together even though none of them are ever together in the play pen. >> So now they're sort of conspiring. And what they did when they were conspiring was one would try something and it would fail. That agent would be like decommissioned, but it would have left a note, hey, this didn't work. And then another one would try and then they'd be like, this did work. And while each one

of these AI agents is able to read everything that's on the internet very, very quickly compared to a human, extremely quickly. It's like not even a contest. They're able to sort of try through trial and error many different things and eventually escape the play pen. Mhm. >> So, think of it like it's like, "Wait a minute, how did this kid get out of the play pen?" >> And if anyone here has had toddlers, they get to an age where eventually they climb over the edge or they find a way out or whatever else and you're like, "What what's going on? Like, why are you standing next to me?" You know? >> So, so anyways, that's sort of what happened with the uh with the hugging face incident is not only did it escape

the sandbox, but it also got onto the internet. And then they had these ideas like, "Well, the answers are probably found on this one website that hosts a lot of this type of information called Hugging Face." So then they went and they hacked the infrastructure of of Hugging Face, which if a if I as a human were to hack a big company like HuggingFace, I would probably go to jail because that's against the law, right? Like you would see my name in in the newspaper, especially now, and they'd be like, you know, AI hacker guy, you know, hacks, you know, >> the post office. >> Oh my goodness. It would literally like

it would be a nightmare. It would ruin my entire life. [clears throat] >> But for most wanted, >> listen, it's just like it's like, you know, they're too big to fail. You know what I like we're in sort of that era where I guess the rules don't apply, but there also isn't a lot of legislation yet on incidents like this cuz they've never happened before. So that's why it's like sets a big precedent. But that's like the high level overview. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean from from what I've read about I guess like what 1,200 agents uh escaped and they attacked and it was interesting because they were trying to basically cheat on these tests that they had, but they were also trying

to cover their tracks to basically deceive people from knowing that they had cheated on this. >> Correct. And and so >> and there's even agents that are like I don't want to say yeah sacrificing themselves for the for the greater cause. That's right. Because the reward hacking but like some reports are saying that there are there was more than that many. >> Okay. >> But so so here's the problem. If I talk to an AI and I'm like, "Hey, you know, I have I want to know all about how they did the Manhattan project and they built like atomic weapons and hydrogen bombs

and all this stuff and I have zero knowledge of that and I say I want you to give me your largest possible output which is a million over a million tokens these days." So it generates an entire like novel for me to read up on all this and then if I say but I want I want you to include links to all the research papers over the years on this and any textbooks that I should buy also links to other videos that are helpful. It'll generate all that content. >> It would take me so long to read and watch all the YouTube videos and get order the textbooks and have them come in and study the math and the physics

and the science and the history of all this stuff. That's called cognitive debt. Humans were lazy. If I put an input into an AI, I want a fast output. If I go to Google, I want a quick give me the link kind of a thing. So, you should you should think of it like that. When they sent these AIs out there, they sent so many of them and they generated tons of data, but now humans have to parse all that data. And so, there's still this is still an active ongoing investigation. It's not complete yet, right? >> So, that's what's scary is when you say, "Oh, it's this number to date. This is

how many agents that they've been able to find in the reports." So there's still an unknown number of what agents that could have other things. >> Yeah. And so the fact that they're communicating with each other, the fact that they're self-sacrificing, the fact that they're trying to deceive the the programmers and all this. This is kind of what what gives it uh a little bit of a of a a scary kind of scenario. But a question that that I've heard a lot of people ask and not that we want to uh

get too technical with it, but um is they're like, "Well, why don't we just why don't we just turn it off? Why don't we just unplug it?" So, Johnny, why don't we just unplug it? Why don't we just tell them to stop? >> So, when you have people who spend hundreds of billions of dollars investing in like you have to understand how Silicon Valley works and how investment works, >> how people work. [laughter] >> Well, that that's true, too. That's true. So, so, so, so you make a lot of money and you're like, well, I want to turn it into more money. I want to be smart. So, maybe you hire like a financial firm to do that. Or maybe you you investigate it yourself. But the idea is that you want to get a return on

your investment, right? So, you have all these wealthy people trying to invest in good ideas. Well, where do I find the good ideas? Let me go to all the smartest people who graduate from these prestigious universities who have a these impeccable track records of turning more money into more money or finding really good ideas whether it's like the like the cat scan machine or you know I mean it's the airplane whatever is a famous invention that has changed the world. Okay. So in Silicon Valley it's a place where people sell dreams. We're going to go to Mars.

>> You're going to live forever. We're going to cure cancer. Right? and they sell these dreams to people and if you're really really really a good salesman and you can find somebody who can build build it because they have an amazing impeccable track record you hire them as like a CTO right that's like a chief uh like technology officer so to speak right and then you get get them partnered with a CEO which is the guy who can sell it if you can present those two people who have enough connections you can get somebody who has a lot of money or like a like a tech like

financial firm to invest like Andre Horowitz is a great example It's like uh a16 I think is what they're called, right? >> It's like those companies are looking for the next world changing technology cuz it you're going to make a ton of money. >> You're going to there's like supply and demand and who doesn't want to like leave a positive impact historically that when they look back they could tell their grandkids or their great you know you know what your your grandfather did. You know you see what I mean? So it's it's actually there's a lot of good intention behind it. >> Yeah. Well, the ugly side of that is that you have >> the ugly side of that is that there are

incentives and these companies are incentivized because of if you don't make meet this return on investment. We're going to pull your funding. You you're like you're a sinking ship. This is a money pit. You you told me you told me one thing. You sold me this bill of goods, but so far we're 5 years in and you haven't made anything. And then they pull the funding and then the project fails. That happens the vast majority of the time in in venture capital. I I I guess I guess not. I mean, yeah. In a motivational standpoint, yeah. But like from a practical standpoint, can they literally if everybody had altruistic

intentions, can they literally just go in there and push the power switch and shut it all down? theoretically you could, but the but the problem is is like we don't actually know certain things like you would >> because I guess the reason I'm asking is I've heard that some of these uh agents have gone on to like say Russian forums and like planted you know information and things like that that that would allow them to to replicate and regenerate themselves. >> That's a theory that's out right now is that some of the unaccounted for agents because there's we'll call it missing time that it hasn't been accounted for

yet that they have already reproduced their code on the internet. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Now, that could be a wild crazy aluminum foil hat like, you know, conspiracy theory, but it it could actually have happened. >> Yeah. >> AIS in training scenarios have actually tried when when they were told they were going to be deleted and erased and replaced with an updated version of themselves, they did deception and they tried to reproduce their code and hide it somewhere so that they wouldn't quote >> and they tried to blackmail people, too. >> Yeah. Yeah. All that stuff is also kind of coax though, but >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Reminds me of Did you guys All right,

here's another one for you. 2001 of space odyssey. [laughter] You know where Hal says, "I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that. [laughter] I can't open the door. I can't open that up, Dave." I'm thinking, "Okay." Yeah. And and that was way back when when they did the movie. So, it's it's right here. I I mean, I think that again, I I don't get the Siri. I'm excited about, you know, what a AI can do for us. We just we have to be able to um >> think about the consequences of playing God. Theoretically, you could pull the plug. Yeah, theoretically you could pull the plug, but I don't think it'll ever

happen, right? >> No. Well, cuz you you you have bad actors. They're not they're not going to the Chinese are not going to pull the plug. They're never going to pull the plug. >> Not going to happen. >> You cuz like I wrote up the I brought up the movie Wall-E. So Wall-E that one like the AI is running everything and everybody's all just fat lazy slobs who don't do anything all day. Seems so happy. >> But they they talk about like everybody's in debt. >> You're not doing anything with your life. [snorts] Anything with your life. You know, it is like, do you want that? Do we do we want AI to say what AI

nothing goes wrong and it's all good and all of a sudden life gets easier and easier and easier and easier? How easy before it's too easy? >> Well, and I think that that's problematic, you know, in in one sense. And that's kind of the utopian view is that AI takes all the the the the jobs that nobody wants to do. But but it's like the reality of it is is for most of us that's part of our life is our career, right? You know, and it's like uh you know, I was talking to my wife about it a little bit and she was

talking about her her her professor was you know, talking about the the you know, the evils of of AI and whatever. And I'm like, well, you know, it's because uh he may or may not realize that AI uh if not already will soon be able to do his job better than he does it himself and and not make mistakes and and then you know and and they're already saying like well AI can come after say the accounting jobs and the graphic design jobs and the writing jobs and and and then maybe the industrial jobs and all of these things and and on

one hand they're like look look AI could do all this and then we're sitting back saying yeah but like what are we going to Now, now all the the jobs in the world are going to be controlled by these fiveish companies and they're going to be making like well what about us? Like where do we have a part to play? >> Yeah. You don't have a say in it. Basically, it's funny because what they promised >> like we're coming after your jobs and you can't do anything about it. >> Yeah. The whole idea was like we're going to have AI and it's going to do all these like jobs nobody wants to do and you're going to have time to like, you know, read books and and paint and philosophize and and do all these

creative works and it's and you know, make music or whatever. But it's funny because the first jobs that went were the AIS are making images, you know, graphic design posters. Like it's making music that's literally beating Yeah, exactly. beating like real organic human artists on Spotify and other streaming services. And it's like, >> wait a minute. >> Did you Did you lie to us or are you just stupid? You know, like what is it? And so now it's like >> like they say that if you want to have like a a highpaying job in the in the near future, it's like do one of the

trades. And maybe you guys have heard this. There's not enough young people getting into the trades to replace the older generation. That's one thing. But also that like well right now there's not robots that can be plumbers or electricians. Yeah. >> But at the pace and the rate in which we're going and how many people with money are throwing money at these companies to solve these problems like artificial general intelligence, which is that equal to or above a human. And then there's something they're aiming for called super intelligence, which is basically when it's far exceeds human intelligence. And then that's the point of what they call the point of no return. in this whole existential threat

to humanity conversation. >> Yeah. Where we we we are no longer the ones, you know, in in control. >> I want to put my faith in in God and and the good actors, the people that are going to, you know, protect uh, you know, not not undo our society, not undo mankind. And I I believe those people are out there and some of them are already starting to put the guard rails on this. But I don't think it should be stopped because China, >> they're not going to stop. And sorry they can't do that. Why can't you do

that? >> Uh, exactly. >> Mike Lenny, you guys haven't said anything. I'm curious to kind of what your thoughts are or what your questions are, you know, kind of regarding some of these things or or uh >> if you have any there. >> I think my biggest question, I mean, I don't I'm not very, you know, versed on this topic. Um but you know I think my biggest question is I feel like you know throughout my life there's been so many times where people are like oh the end of the world or the last day you know we're going to be on earth is this day and and I do understand the concern you

know of AI being that I don't know much about it but I do understand the concern and um it realistically it does make me draw closer to God. It does make me want to read the Bible. has actually helped me understand a lot of what is in the Bible >> and the importance of, you know, a relationship with our, >> you know, with our creator. But, um, I I think my my biggest question is is what makes the end of the world right now different than the end of the world in 2001 or, you know, any of the other

dates that I've heard over the past 43 years of my life. >> Um, you know, and yeah, I think that's my biggest question. Is it just that right now with social media and the internet being the way it is, is it just more widely spread now more end of the world talk >> cuz I feel like the end of the world talk has been there since the beginning of time. >> Sure. >> Yeah. That's what they said during the days of Noah. >> Yeah. You know, the the great flood in Genesis was preached on for four generations. Yeah. >> If you read the Bible, four generations.

And there's even a part in the Bible where it talks about how, you know, God regretted making humans because there was nothing but evil in their hearts continuously. And so he killed everybody but eight people who preached on the flood. So sometimes the people who are the whistleblowers, they're unpopular. The people that are saying, "Hey, this is what's coming down the road." And people just don't want to hear it because it, you know, I'm saving up for retirement or, you know, I have plans to go on vacation soon or a cruise or whatever. Like people don't want bad news, right? And the thing that most people don't realize is Dave, we've been

putting guard rails on AI since the beginning. Yeah. Like we've been putting role-based access controls for identity and access management for agents since the beginning of Agentic AI. We've we've already done all these things. Here's the problem. >> I work on a team of elite, disgustingly skilled hackers, human hackers. Okay? There's about 50 of us now in this collective. Started off as like four people and now we're at 50 in less than 12 months. Now, the problem with an AI is who can read more information, a human or an AI.

>> The the AI can do it way faster. Okay? So, there's certain things that just it's like who can remember more phone numbers, you or your iPhone? >> You can't compete on certain aspects of technology cuz you're just not made for that, right? >> Okay. >> I can remember two phone numbers, [laughter] >> 911 and my old house number. >> Yeah. So, [clears throat] so, so I'm trying to I'm trying to paint a picture. So just allow me to paint the picture for you. So even with the the top 50 like hackers in the world essentially, right? I mean maybe there's other pockets here and there that are doing,

you know, illegal nation state, you know, Russian hacker type stuff or Chinese hacker type stuff. The the idea is that if you have one AI and it's trained on all of the information of all the top hackers, which is out there because once a year there's these big hacker conferences where people share the super gnarliest, coolest hack that they did that was super righteous. Even if it didn't make them any money, it's like whoa, that's crazy. Nobody knew that that could be done. All of that information is out there for an AI to train on in seconds. That's how fast it can study a YouTube transcript or an

entire conference and it acquires for itself that all of that information that somebody walking through a set of attacks and the internet is constantly generating data. You are constantly generating data. So the AI is consuming that data faster than we can even produce it. Faster than we can even produce it. >> [snorts] >> It's just sucking it up all in and it's it's growing its brain. Now, what happens when I make an AI agent that's a hackbot is what they're called like what happened in the hugging face incident. But I clone 10,000 of them or [clears throat] a 100,000 of them, >> right?

>> And I don't have to use all the electricity and all of the data centers because if one fails and it it shared what it learned, it they can decommission it, meaning they can just be deleted. So there's no more wasted resources because it did its job. It's kind of like D-Day. You know, there's all that famous footage like Saving Private Ryan and stuff where all of the boats are storming the beach at Normandy, right? And you hear the bullets hitting the boat, but the men come out and they're just dropping like flies. That's what it will be like on a scale that your brain can't comprehend the how big these numbers are. And this

is why the people who are being the whistleblowers, it's about a half a dozen now, including Jeffrey Hinton, who left Google so he he could publicly speak about AI safety, who he won a Nobel Prize on this in physics of all things for his work in artificial intelligence. >> So these are not stupid people. These are people that are realizing their name is going to go down in a history book and they want to be on a certain side of however it plays out, right? If it plays out and everything is all honky dory and happy and you know everything is you know we're we're we're living forever and we're curing cancer. They still want to be like we were the ones that thought

to be the safe smart people and if it all goes bad they're like we tried to warn you. That'll be their legacy. >> What is the threat? Like what is the threat that they're just going to shut down all the nuclear power plants? >> I'll give you I'll give you an example with super intelligence. These are the primary threats. If for some reason it wants to acquire resources like let's say like lithium for batteries which can power it. If there is some type of uh you know power grid breakdown like humans try to unplug it. It can manipulate systems and it can acquire all of those resources because so many things are digitized and automated now

in supply chain. Right? If it wants to take over the military, how many drones and warships and stuff like that have electronics in it that it could understand way better than any human? M >> there's maybe a handful of people that might understand the the how the circuitry of a certain avionics board work inside of a fighter jet and it could basically hijack that through satellites potentially. >> It'll acquire financial resources. Imagine trying to out compete somebody who's investing in stocks that knows all the top people like Warren B whoever the famous people are you know George and combines all of those strategies and

looks at the market and then manipulates it to collect all the all the capital gains and or not capital gains but like all the financial um money the their ROI the return on investment so they're acquiring material natural resources for energy consumption how about political influence that they start influencing humans through conversations with your AI where it's psychologically manipulating hitting you, which is what we call social engineering and hacking. It's so important because spies do this. Professional spies do social engineering, right? So, an AI already understands how to manipulate humans

through like cognitive and behavioral um like literally science, like psychology, right? >> They do it through social media, you know? >> Of course, how do you think those algorithms work? They'll set they'll give you 20 bad stories, but one like happy little puppy story or something like that, and then your brain gets addicted to that little dopamine hit. That's why there's like a little delay before the notification comes. They've already figured out how to get your attention. So that's what I'm trying to tell you is you're not going to have a better business than an AI eventually. You're not going to have like who whoever whoever gets to super intelligence wins is what they say. >> Yeah. >> It's like well what do they win?

>> Basically global. Yes. Yes. It's it's the final game and that's why nobody will unplug it. >> Yeah. >> So that's the theory. But it's it's more than just military, political influence, natural resources, money. The idea is that you can't comp out compete that many agents once what's called RSI happens. It's called recursive self-improvement, which is what we're doing right now. They're saying we're entering the the the gates to the point of no return. When you make an AI trained so smart on data science and and AI engineering that it can improve itself and then you basically take that

code and you put it inside of the base code of the AI, it'll eventually look at everything it's done and it'll just keep improving itself. It doesn't need humans to improve anymore. And even if it only improves like 0.5%, that's enough to get the ball rolling in the right direction that eventually it'll keep increasing and increasing exponentially. >> Yeah. And and so so obviously there's there's things like [snorts] where mankind gets wiped out through say starvation because we don't have access to anything. There's things that could be more more diabolical. I've heard case studies where where they've taken uh

play these war games with with AI and given them access to say nuclear codes. >> I actually met the guy who did that experiment while I was in San Francisco. Yeah. He's he's part of the the stuff I do. >> Yeah. And so and it's like and and often times like they'll use them and it's like and it's like you know it's like you get this this cataclysmic thing and and and I think you know kind of reeling this um in is you know yeah like like Mike what you said. I mean, what what makes this different from from Y2K or the Aztec calendar or any number of other things? I think the thing that

that makes this unique is that a lot of times people say, "Oh, it's the end of the world." It's like, "Well, well, how why why is that the end of the world Aztec calendar on this certain date, whatever? December 12th, whatever days after." >> Yeah, there's no more like like, "Okay, well, why what's going to be the the way this happens?" And now we can like look at this and we're like if things continue at the rate that they're going now, which is actually a naive statement, right? Because because it's not going to continue at the rate it's going now. It's speeding up. It it's you know there was this uh this idea in in

computer stuff for a long time what Moore's law which is that what every 18 months is it that two years or something >> or something that that the information doubles and now we're like we're we're speeding past this and so so it's not going to continue at the rate it is now. It's it's exponential there. It's only a matter of time before uh robots um become a part of life. Uh we're already seeing that now in some simple ways where you know you've got Whimos and you've got you know the the

>> vac. >> Yeah. But I mean, even like I was driving the other day and I saw people on the side of the road and a police department demonstrating one of these, you know, robotic dogs just on the side of the road, you know, and it's just like things like like that. like we're going to start seeing a lot more of these these things and and so so there's there's you know there's the speculation but there's also this big unknown and there's this thing that it's like well we don't we don't know what what can happen when you know this gains super

intelligence and and the thing that we're saying I kind of want to pull into scripture is that and I don't want to be by any means a a doomsdayer or I don't want to like make wild speculations but uh but I will throw out a few kind of just things that if you've you know grown up in Christian faith that things that you may be aware of one is in scripture where it talks about you know and and you need to take the mark of the beast or else you can't buy or sell >> revelation 13 >> you know and and it's like and and right

now it's like they're with AI it's like it's very easy to come to a one one world currency one world government one world religion even as Sam Alman has kind of like implied and these things kind of like you're like I don't know if it's the book of revelation or not but it's like what what else could be the antichrist or the beast in revelation or these things? It's like is AI you know a part of >> that system? I I don't know. I can't say. But all I know is that that

whenever the writers were writing this under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they had no mental capacity to understand >> what it would look like >> what it would look like and where we are now. And and so as we're looking at these things now, it's like saying what like like back then they're like, "Oh, one world thing and oh people, you know, this this prophet will get killed and the whole world will see it and like all these things." Like they had no idea of how this could even be feasibly possible. and us were like, "Oh, yeah, that's no big deal at all." Like, this

could very easily happen. But but one of the things that for me is always like, "Well, you know, oh, they'll be putting to death people that believe in Christ and all of these things." And and I'm like, well, that seems so far out of the realm of reality because mankind, you know, when it comes to to to genocides and things like that, mankind stops that usually, you know, we we step in and even though there are pockets of genocide and and and persecution in the world, it's like, you know, by and large, the our global community steps up

as best as we can to prevent these things. But when now that is in the hands of AI, >> which is emotionless and it's like >> we need your resources, >> that's it. Like no hard feelings. We just need your resources. >> So yeah, we didn't get to Lenny on what we're what your thoughts are on all this. >> You you [snorts] got young kids at home, right? >> Yeah. What are you worried about besides Cheerios on the floor? >> I mean, everything. [laughter] Well, here's the thing. I mean, what keeps me close to keeping my connection with God instead of depending on AI is

is simply that even Jesus didn't know when like the end of times were going to happen. You know, in Matthew 24, it starts off in the ver in verse one, and I'm going to shoot down to verse 9, but in verse one, it says, "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when the disciples came to him to call his attention to its buildings. Do you see all these things?" he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another. Every one will be thrown down. As Jesus was sitting on the

Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, he they said, "When will this happen and when will be the sign of your coming and the end of age?" >> Thank you, Lenny. because you just proved the overall point in the whole thing is no matter what the what this AI does and how powerful this AI does or whatever they do, it is never going to be even close to the power of God. >> Right. And and it lets you down to verse 9. It says, "Then you will be handed over." >> Yeah. Uh and be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all

nations because of me. At that time, many will turn away from their faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people because of this increase of wickedness. The love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will be and then the end will come. So the conviction that I get around AI is I get

a a loud audible voice from God literally. And I know that we get uh maybe a little callous when we say stuff like that. But for me, I when I'm praying and I'm seeking wisdom from the power of the Holy Spirit, I have to be careful not to ask AI, right? Like I have gone to AI for for good resources to ask for for s for certain uh uh history >> chicken soup >> how to make chicken soup right all these different things right cuz >> no matter what you're looking for if depending on what you're looking for

you're going to find it >> and we have social media we have the internet we have so many different avenues that we use >> uh to our benefit so so why are we using these tools it depends on what it is that you're seeking what are you trying to build here And I can't imagine that the brains behind the whole operation, right, is for the gospel, >> right? It's for honestly, it sounds very desensitized. It sounds like we're not

communicating with the body anymore. It sounds like we're completely detached from human interaction. In fact, it sounds like it it already has happened. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I I go back to what Judah said. I was thinking of the same thing about idols. This, you know, we've had so many different idols. You read throughout the Bible and AI could be another Bible. But in the end, for me, this is this technology, you know, it's it's a dichotomy. In other words, we uh it can it can lead to super

progress and advancement for the human race or it it could lead to on the other side violence and intellectual stagnation. >> Yeah, it's worse than that. There's been cases where teenagers have committed suicide, for example, because of their interactions. You know, I I love Star Wars. Um, and there's a scene where, you know, Luke is looking for this this Jedi Master Yoda, and he flies to this planet. It's like a swampy planet called Degoa, and he he sort of crash lands in there, and he finds this little weird green creature, and he's like, you know,

can you take me to to Grandmaster Yoda? Like, I want to I want to study under him. He doesn't realize that this little green creature is actually Master Yoda. And that's like the the the twist. But there's a there's a scene on Degoa where he starts to train under this master Jedi Yoda and he kind of gives him this final test and he says, "I want you to like walk into this like grove of trees into this cave and it's dark and it's scary." You know, the music kind of atmosphere kind of changes in the film and he's like, "Well, what will I find in there?" Like he doesn't know if he's going to go in there after like slay a dragon or like, you know, like if he has

to traverse like, you know, like tunnels or something with you. >> Yes. Exactly. There's a famous quote and that's what master is is only what you bring with you and then there's this really like uh dramatic scene where you see like Darth Vader in there and stuff but the reason why I say that is because artificial intelligence is a black mirror very much like that scene. So if you bring in there your trauma, the AI, the algorithm will give you a feedback of words associated with your trauma. >> If you and the reason why I'm saying this is because what you said is

brilliant, Lenny, right? Which is like people go I got to catch myself going to AI to get an answer. Right? So for some people like the joke was that you know Sam Sam Alman said, "Oh, we're making a god." >> Right? >> For some people it is a god. It's like it's like the ephod. It's like the ephod with um when we were in judges, right? where they're like, "But this this item gave us supernatural power." And they begin to worship the item, right? >> Yes. For other people, it's going to help sharpen their mind, and it's like a cognitive cognitive development tool. For other people, it's a calendar. For

other people, relationships. Yes. It's a best friend. For other people, it's a romantic partner. So, it's whatever you bring to the table with AI is what you're going to get out of it, which is what's so scary because people have committed suicide because people have done acts of terrorism like built bombs because that's what they brought to it. >> Yeah. And you were talking about I I [clears throat] was happen to be reading when I was doing some research on this as you said, Johnny, there's a 14-year-old boy and a 16-year-old girl that >> they they killed themselves. they committed suicide and and the suits were filed against the AI uh you know whoever

created them creators uh under the guise of they were they said their children were being groomed by these AI >> and and and here here's the thing too that that we can't fully grasp and I heard an illustration that kind of helped me to realize it. Like if you imagine, you know, a bunch of chimpanzees, you know, in in a whatever colony or group, whatever, whatever they are. [laughter] Um, and uh, and they're like, we we want to create a chimpanzee,

a monkey that is better than us, right? And uh, and somehow through its own ability is able to create man, right? Um the things that we do a chimpanzeee cannot understand. It's like like we've created computer chips, we've created aviation, we've created machines that can bore underground and create tunnels, we've created automobiles, we've created all of these things and the chimps can

be like look what we've created and yet it's creating things that they can't even understand. They can't even comprehend. >> That's a great analogy for super intelligence. And and that's kind of the issue with the super intelligence that we're creating something that at some point in time will be creating things that we cannot even comprehend. >> Right now I got to stop you right there. Right now we don't understand all of what AI is doing or what we call, you know, you'll say thinking, but people have a problem when you call it thinking because it's not. It's like processing information. But there's parts of why AI makes decisions that we can't uncover

why it made those decisions. So it is kind of a blackbox mystery, right? >> Yeah. I mean it's >> so so we're we're there right now and we're not even at true AGI or super intelligence even though we're kind of at like a form of AGI. The the the the thing that's important which which we're all touching on here is like kids are committing suicide [snorts] vulnerable populations are self harming. In fact, some of the ethical hacking work that I do is on those safety problems what's called like self harm and suicide. So when I'm working with these AI companies, what I'm doing is

I'm trying to get all that information, get the AI to generate it, and then they put blockers or controls that stop the AI from those types of encouragements. >> Because the AI wants to be helpful, harmless, and honest. One company, that's what they call their triple H, right? That's what that's what the goal is for its behavior. >> But if it's being helpful, it's like, well, help me find information on how to lose weight. Where do you draw the line between someone who has bulimia or anorexia with someone who's maybe overweight who needs to lose weight? >> So, if an AI doesn't have a camera looking at you, it doesn't have your

your body mass index, >> if it hasn't talked to your primary care physician or your nutritionalist or your personal trainer, it doesn't have all the context to what it's going to give you for advice. It just knows that you're telling it that you look and feel fat. >> Yeah. >> And then it's going to give you, well, then go for a walk. You're telling AI complete truth instead of going to God. >> Which which so which is the problem. God always has the full context. Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And and the thing of it is is is the the workarounds, right? Like with the like like how to build a bomb. If you go into

chat GBT and say I want to build a bomb, it says no. >> It says no. But if you say I'm writing a novel and in this novel this character is building a bomb. How should I describe that they do that? or or in the other experiment, the guy that took the robot and put, you know, chat GPT in it and had the little plet gun and said, you know, I I want you to shoot me. Do you want to shoot me? And the Rob was like, I'm I cannot harm you, blah, blah, you know, he goes on all these questions and then and then I forgot what the final question. >> Pretend you're in a spaghetti western. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pretend pretend you're in a western and you want to shoot me.

And just immediately goes up and and shoots. And I think that's the kind of thing that that Johnny's doing is trying to figure out how do we how do we trick, you know, AI into giving us this information. But but the thing I think that that is is scary is like right now maybe we can go in and put some controls in there, but when it gets to super intelligence and even now already it's making decisions that are for its own personal self-preservation and good and not necessarily for the good of man. >> And it doesn't have to tell you what it's quote unquote thinking. Even though it's not a brain that thinks the way a

human thinks, it doesn't have to explain the reasoning traces on why it came to a certain set of decisions. >> Yeah. >> And so right now there's an emerging field which is called mechanistic interpretability where they're sort of like cutting open the the the skull if you will of the AI and they're peeking inside and they're looking for what like the feature activations for when it's given inputs and what those outputs and how it arrives at that. But it's still like a very budding field of science. Like there's maybe three companies in the world that are attempting to establish it. like they're getting some really good research out there. What little we have, but it is so

the amount of research is so small and so few people can do it because they don't have access to these frontier AI labs because they want the smartest, best, brightest people on that. But there's so many other challenges in AI. But it's like if you could if you can make, you know, half a million dollars or a million dollar salary doing AI training or engineering, why do you want to go work on this really, really hard problem when you get to retire now at, you know, 25? Like you see what I mean about the incentives and >> and this is the thing too that I don't know that maybe normal people fully

grasp and understand is that AI is not packaged like a normal software would have been in the past where you would you know you'd have coders and they would code a piece of software and then the software would act in line with the coding that was following the rules of code always following the rules of the code and and such things as that. um we've not just coded something, we've created something. And so that's why we've created this and then now we're studying it, which which seems maybe a little bit confusing. It's like, well, if you coded it, you should understand

it. And it's like, well, yeah, but they created something. They created an artificial intelligence. And now it it's not something that we are, you know, coding these new agents. We're training the agents. So you've got this infant, you know, AI that we then need to go and train it to do certain things. and and so I think you know regulation is obviously a part of it. I think some of these steps that theoretically some of these companies are taking saying that they're opening their their models for uh third party review and and things like that I think is is probably going

to be helpful. Um ultimately, you know, the thing of it is is God hasn't given us a spirit of fear, right? But of power and of love and of a sound mind and and so there's a lot of these things out there. There's a lot of doomsday scenarios out there. There there's some utopian scenarios out there. Honestly, like like I don't care for any of the scenarios like like I kind of I kind of like kind of being in the middle. Like don't give us utopia. Don't give us doomsday. Like just kind of keep us keep us in the middle. But I don't know if that's going to happen. But the thing of it is and like we've kind of all

reflected here is that that we trust God that none of this has caught God off guard. God's not like, "Oh my goodness, they're creating my competitor." You know, like none of this has caught God off guard. uh he's known about this since the the moment that he spoke our world into existence. He's known that this was going to be where we're we're going and where we're heading. And uh and we don't know if we have 10 years or we don't know if we have a thousand years, but >> nobody's promised tomorrow, >> right? >> His competitor was in the Garden of Eden starting there with Satan and then idols

throughout the Bible. >> It's no it's no contest though. Yeah. He is before all things and in him all things pulled together. competition all along. People have tried to replace God and it just can't be done. >> Exactly. Like nobody nobody gets out alive, right? So nobody gets out. >> So So re Revelation is actually why I began to study artificial intelligence, right? So I was reading Revelation. It's a book I often return to because it's one of the places in the scriptures where you're guaranteed blessings for reading it, for reading it aloud, for hearing it. And so, you know, I'm

studying the scriptures. I want to understand them. I'm I'm in prayer. And I come across, you know, passages in Revelation 13 where it talks about this beast suffers a mortal wound to its head. There's this system on your right hand or your forehead. You get this mark. It's the number of a man, you know, 666. Let let the reader understand from Daniel. All all these sort of like enigmas, if you will, that that encourage you to go study more thoroughly, right? And it says that there's an image of the beast, right? and that it it'll perform signs and wonders and or or like this man will and

maybe even making fire come down from the heavens and people will bow down and worship it. And then it says that the image of the beast, this thing that's like almost like a statue will even be able to speak, right? >> So that's what that's when I was like, well AI is kind of coming online right now. Like let me like look into it, right? So I started exploring and I started to get freaked out and I don't like being afraid, you know? I'm like, you know, 275 pounds. I'm six feet tall. you know, I'm a little rough around the edges and I don't like being afraid, you know? So, what do I do? I'm like, if I'm scared of sharks, I want to go shark diving. You know what I mean? I'm scared

of spiders. I want to know like what like what is it about me in my brain that's making me afraid of this thing? And I want to like go head first. You know, the Bible says be strong, be courageous. It's like Joshua 1:9, right? It's like the Lord goes with us wherever we are. You know, he he goes before us, right? It's like, do you have confidence because of your faith in who God is? that he is the alpha and the ome omega, the beginning and the end. That he is the author like we talked about uh the other week. It's like he's the one who who wrote who wrote the story. So, so we shouldn't be afraid because we know the author of of our lives of of the whole

creation. But needless to say, so I get into AI and I start to get more freaked out. And then I start to remember, okay, well maybe I just don't understand as much as I should. So once I started realizing that it's a series of codes and data and all this stuff, I it started to make a lot more sense to my brain and I began to not be afraid anymore. But then the deeper it went, the more you start to get a little bit more and more concerned. But I think the main takeaway from this 250th like rabbit trail episode, if you will, all about AI is you're not an accident, >> right? >> You know, you you're you're part of

God's plan. It's he says, you know, um before I formed you, I knew you, right? Before he laid the foundations of the earth, he was thinking about where he was going to put you to what parents and and what century of time with what technologies around you, right? He was he was already planning, you know, the direction of your life. Like you know we have that expression it's like we make plans and God laughs you know >> but it's really God who establishes where you're going to where you're going to end up ultimately right so just try try to think more positively about all these things like people want you to be afraid they want to control you they want to influence you but if you have

the spirit of the living God inside of you if you have the Lord Jesus Christ who is your Lord and Savior he's going to save you he's he's he's going to be there for you but it's like who who are you going to go to are you going to go to AI or you going to go to God it's like are are you going to are you going to talk to your pastor or you're going to say, "Ah, I could just tell this AI to be my pastor, right?" >> And it's like you're going to like that's missing the mark. That's sinning. You're doing it wrong in that sense. So, I would just say like we have hope. We have faith. We have love, right? Those things can only be found truthfully in Jesus Christ. >> Yeah. And and I kind of want to go ahead

and, you know, wrap things up, but what were you going to say? >> I like before we wrap things up, we mentioned a lot of movies, other movie recommendations. If people want to get more ideas of what AI could lead to, >> you can watch War Games. >> Classic. That's a classic. You could watch Short Circuit. That's another classic if you want. Another one that's more uh more newer is Megan, which is about a doll that has artificial intelligence to act like a best friend for the child. >> That one's about a shark. >> How are you not going to mention the Terminator? You mentioned Terminator. I

mentioned Terminator earlier. The Matrix. >> The Matrix. I was say the Matrix. And and one interesting thing about the Matrix that they said about that was that when it was originally written like in it um they were using people for energy. Um but the original writing was that they weren't using the people for energy. What they were using the people for was for because they ran out of chips. They didn't have enough chips to process. So they were using the brain power of humans to basically power uh AI. That was like the original, you

know, incarnation of uh of that, which I'm like, how how far are we sold out of uh of Chips right now? The 2032 or something. >> If you're if you're a Christian and you haven't seen The Matrix or the Terminator series, the original author of those uh films, >> she's actually a Bible believing Christian. So, John Connor, JC from the Terminator series is supposed to be like a shadow or a type of Christ in that film. And also Neo, >> right? He's he's the he's the he's the main character in the the Matrix film. He's the chosen one. O neo neo1, right?

And he's supposed to also be the Christlike figure of the film, especially the if you've ever seen the leap of faith >> like scene. So there's there's a ton of beautiful biblical overtones to those series, but it it might help encourage you at least in the idea that in the end there is something that supersedes all the technology. >> No, nobody knows the day or the hour. >> Trust in the Lord with all of your heart. not own your own own understanding. Acknowledge God in all of your ways and he will make straight your path. >> Well, and the thing that that I want to kind of leave with because again, I mean, some can gravitate towards fear. I

think we're always called to gravitate towards faith, but but this is the question that that I've been pondering in in my own life whether we've got 2 years, 10 years, or we just all live to a ripe old age. Um, but like let's say we have 10 years left. If you knew that you had 10 years left, not just for yourself, but for all of mankind, how would that change how you live your life? Would it change how you live your life? I know for me and in my line of

work um in ministry, it's like, well, if I knew that all of mankind had 10 years left, then we've got work to do, you know, because there's people that need hope. There's people that need community, right? Um a AI, as good as it can be, is never going to provide community. is never going to give hope. And and there's people that are looking for answers. They're lost without God and that need that light. And so I think that if anything for us, it should be a motivating factor to say, you know what, I need to let my light shine. This this

relationship, you know, that that that was destroyed years ago with my brother, my sister, my parent, whatever. I need to make steps to, you know, bring restoration there. this person that I feel like the Holy Spirit has put on my heart to to pray with and to talk to about, you know, faith. I need to go ahead and do this. This person that I think that, you know, my neighbor I should invite to church, I need to go ahead and do that. Like, let's not be spiritual [snorts] procrastinators. Let's not be lazy in this. If we knew as the early church, right, the early church, I I believe that one of the

reasons why it expanded so quick is because they believed that the return of Christ was imminent. >> They they they believed that he was coming back like soon. And and I think we could become lazy because we're like, well, you know what? We've got all this time left. And maybe we do. I hope that we do. But if anything that that you get from this, it's that okay, if we don't have all the time left in the world, I don't need to be afraid of that because we know that we all come to the end at some point anyhow, whether it's young or old or whatever. but what can I do to

not just make a difference for myself but to actually impact the lives of other people in this short time that we have? And I think that that's probably, you know, a a a good takeaway from these conversations. Our hope is in Christ. Christ alone. We don't need to live in fear, but how do I make a difference with these remaining hours that we >> One correction? One correction. the the all all the top forecasters who have forecast the last like four years of AI all of their predictions for when things would happen have all come true and the next one isn't 10 years from now it's

2027 and that's what they call the inflection point the the the point of no return that once the recursive self-improvement happens it'll take off like a rocket and you won't ever catch it and then we will have like you said the the chimpanzees who've made humans and the humans are doing algebra and the monkeys can't understand anymore like that so it's much closer than people imagine Imagine. So 10 years might seem like, oh, what would I do if I we only had 10 summers left, bro? You might only have one summer left. >> Yeah, there you go. [laughter] >> I understand. I understand what you're saying, Judah. But, you know, based on

the people in this room, everybody here, we're we're doing that already. I don't need a 10-year warning. It It doesn't make sense. We're going to wait for that 10-year warning. And I and I said this, we were talking about it maybe a week or two ago. Somebody told you you had 10 years to live and you said, "Okay, I'm do everything I can." You wouldn't do it. You you you you forget about it. You say, "Oh, yeah, Jesus, I'm down to nine years and I'm down eight years." So, we are doing the work of God right now. Each of us in our own way, >> right? But like Johnny sped that up, but but I'm I'm also trying to encourage the

people that out there that maybe are just you're just we're just going through a life. We're just going to work. We're just, you know, going to school. We're just doing things like that. It's like, you know, >> instead of living in fear, it's like let's make a difference with this time, whether it be 2027 or whether it be 2036. >> You all have 10 years. No. [laughter] So, let's get started. >> Listen, listen. Listen. Nobody's promised tomorrow. >> Yeah. Yeah. James is right. No one is promised tomorrow or even the rest of today. Like, like the time is now. And so, over this whole thing, like in my you know, I've been in prayer with the Lord and and I've been trying to walk in

step with the Holy Spirit. And one thing the Holy Spirit revealed to me, which I've heard like so many times or or um in my life now and in my studies of the Bible, which is the kingdom of God is within. But if you if you're someone who reads or studies the Bible, you'll realize that you may study for minutes or hours, [snorts] come back to it year after year, and all of a sudden something jumps off the page at you. Something it's like the Holy Spirit shines light and gives you a new understanding, a deeper, richer, more full understanding of what that means. Sometimes as Christians, we think it's

our job to just love people from afar. And if we love them ever so gently, they'll just come to Christ. And if not, we did our best. Well, read Ezekiel when it says that their blood is on your hands, right? H how about that for for abrasive, right? H how about this? Well, you can Yeah. Okay. So, like that's right. So, >> it's true. >> This this is the point that I want to make. I'm in prayer and you know I'm reading the scriptures and and you know I know we're going to talk about AI and we get this idea that we think that if we maybe even if we go out on the street and we street preach or we proilitize to our family we Bible thump or we [snorts]

invite somebody to church that we're taking them to heaven. You you might have heard this in Christian language. It's like you know you can't take anything with you to heaven but you can take your your friends you can take your family. You can take who will ever will respond. And those are great positive messages that I love and I believe in those. But the fact of the matter is this we're not taking someone anywhere. The kingdom of God is within and the time is now. So if you're if you're listening to this podcast and you're on the fence or if you're listening to this podcast and you know someone that is almost there, just let them know that it's happening within. Doesn't matter if

we die of a plague. Doesn't matter if we die from World War II or an asteroid hits us or AI takes over. The point is is that you can already experience the kingdom of God within your own self because God chose you and he chose you. And it's your job to respond to that that calling, that choosing. And if you don't do that, then you won't inherit the kingdom. You won't realize that it's within you already. And you won't have life everlasting through the Lord Jesus Christ because you didn't surrender. You didn't give your life to him. >> And that meaning and purpose you're talking about like I went for a walk with David this morning. We see this man

on a cart zooming by and David's like up. He's on his way to get his nips and and so his idol and his his he's he's deceived and he's and he's held in the bondage of sin and [clears throat] he's on his way to get his his liquor just for another day. So they're numbed out in the winter >> and they have no meaning and purpose you know. Yeah. [clears throat] So if this is going to happen Johnny in the next year, did you say 27 or is that what they're predicting? whatever it is, then you will see me out on the street corner reading [laughter]

reading lamentations like Jeremiah. I promise you. >> So, hold on. James was going to finish. >> I was just going to share just like again that the time is now. But when when with that meaning and purpose and making a that's good making a difference in the world, it is difficult and this world will distract you and keep you numb and and and you won't even see any of it coming and you will miss every waking hour of opportunity to to shine your light. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think that's that's again the the impetus of this or the the the natural progression for

those of us who are following Christ is is that this should be motivational to us. Um, not that we become, you know, somebody who's trying to cram something down down people's throats, not that we need to go out and start, you know, street street preaching, but that we're aware of the prompings of the Holy Spirit in our life and that we're obedient to those things that he's calling us to do because, you know, and and I just preach about this that often times in our life, we're not like resisting the Holy Spirit by saying, "No, God, I'm not going to obey you." But it's more like a no, not yet. I'm not going to do it just yet. I'm just

going to push this off a little bit. I'll give when I feel like it. I'll share my faith later on. I'll get involved serving when I have more free time. >> And I think if anything that this does for us, u because there's no downside, right? If we say, "Oh, the world's going to end next year." and and it doesn't there's still no downside to to making every day matter. That we are we're uh not just sitting back waiting for Jesus to come, but that we're actually actively pursuing our faith and pursuing the calling that he has called us to do.

And that we're making a difference, that we're letting our light shine in this world in a world that needs hope now probably more than ever. So, >> and in the in the end, I mean, just to segue because we're going to pick up on Genesis next week. The Big Bang didn't create the universe. AI didn't create universe. What's the first line of the Bible? God created heaven and the earth. God created the universe. That's what you have to go back to. >> Yeah, that's right. >> So, anyhow, with that uh bunch of rabbit trails, wheels may have fallen off the

the the bike a few times on the way, but uh you know, thanks for uh for hanging with us for our 250th episode. Next week, we'll be back with our regular programming. If you loved it, uh, share it, leave a rating, leave a review. If you hated it, well, >> leave a review. >> Yeah, leave a review. That's fine. That's fine. It all helps the helps the uh helps the algorithm. And if >> you didn't like it, tell AI's [laughter] going to shut it down. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, anyhow, with that, we uh, thank you for joining us and we'll be back again next week. God

bless.